[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Marius Groeger-2
Dear Wolfgang,

As the maintainer of the ARMboot project I welcome your effort to
merge the PPCboot and ARMboot sources and making them available within
the U-Boot project. Here at SYSGO, we are ready to discontinue the
ARMboot project in favour of U-Boot, if we can continue our work on
the U-Boot source tree.

Therefore I would appreciate to have CVS write access to the U-Boot's
source repository on SF.NET. Efficient Open Source development
requires working along the "Release Early, Release Often" scheme. This
is severely hampered if all updates are channelled through one person,
who might not always be available.

With the software already growing faster than we all ever thought
possible, it only makes sense to split responsibilities. For that
reason, we would like to keep our attention on the ARM portions on the
tree. Obviously, changes in the common code must be discussed first
with the maintainers, better yet, with the community.

Also, to be honest, it appears a bit rude to me to take our ARMboot
sources, and then just cut us off. It seems only natural to me that we
both continue doing what we have done all along, only with more
benefit for all of us.

Please let's keep this an _open_ project, not one where only one
member has the power.

Best Regards,
Marius

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marius Groeger           SYSGO Real-Time Solutions AG       mgroeger at sysgo.de
Software Engineering     Embedded and Real-Time Software    www.sysgo.de
Voice: +49-6136-9948-0   Am Pfaffenstein 14                 www.osek.de
FAX:   +49-6136-9948-10  55270 Klein-Winternheim, Germany   www.elinos.com




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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Wolfgang Denk
Dear Marius,

in message <Pine.LNX.4.40.0211041505080.2379-100000 at mag.devdep.sysgo.de> you wrote:
>
> As the maintainer of the ARMboot project I welcome your effort to
> merge the PPCboot and ARMboot sources and making them available within
> the U-Boot project. Here at SYSGO, we are ready to discontinue the
> ARMboot project in favour of U-Boot, if we can continue our work on
> the U-Boot source tree.

You are welcome.

> Therefore I would appreciate to have CVS write access to the U-Boot's
> source repository on SF.NET. Efficient Open Source development
> requires working along the "Release Early, Release Often" scheme. This
> is severely hampered if all updates are channelled through one person,
> who might not always be available.

Your argument is valid, but as I already explained to Robert Kaiser,
it is not the only valid argument; here is a famous quote:

    Conceptual integrity in turn dictates that the design must
    proceed from one mind, or from a very small number of
    agreeing resonant minds.
              - Frederick Brooks Jr., "The Mythical Man Month"


Before  I  add  anybody  to  the  project  as  developer  with  write
permissions  to  CVS,  I  want  to make sure that there is at least a
minimul level of such "resonance". This includes simple  things  like
conforming  to  a  common  coding  style,  in-advance  negotiation of
changes with global impact, etc.


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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Holger Schurig
In reply to this post by Marius Groeger-2
> Efficient Open Source development
> requires working along the "Release Early, Release Often" scheme. This
> is severely hampered if all updates are channelled through one person,
> who might not always be available.

In the KDE project one get's very fast a CVS account. The last time I counted
them they were 767 people with CVS write access. It looks like that an open
approach does not kill even big and complex projects.




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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Marius Groeger-2
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Denk
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Wolfgang Denk wrote:

> Before  I  add  anybody  to  the  project  as  developer  with  write
> permissions  to  CVS,  I  want  to make sure that there is at least a
> minimul level of such "resonance". This includes simple  things  like
> conforming  to  a  common  coding  style,  in-advance  negotiation of
> changes with global impact, etc.

I thought we have known each other for long enough a time to have such
"trust" in each other's work. We will probably never gain 100%
resonance, but then I wouldn't expect this anyway. The success of
team-work is determined by the ability to make some compromises here
and there. To stick with the picture: the resonnance frequency is
somewhere between the developers.

> That does NOT mean that there is any discrimination, or that any con-
> tributions will be igrnored or turned down - if you  want,  ask  if
> any of the people who contributed to PPCBoot has reason to complain.

That's none of my business. All I'm saying is that having worked
together for a long time, and us having ported ARMboot in the first
place should suffice for us to have write access. And somehow I
believe you know I'm right.

> Umm, calm down. On the same base I could argument  that  you  cut  us
> (the  PPCBoot  guys off) by taking "our" PPCBoot sources and creating
> an incompatible ARMBoot. But I don't intend to start such a fruitless
> discussion.

I aggree. The mailing lists dcoument well enough why things went like
they did. You never asked me for write access, though, that I would
have granted you immediately.

> > Please let's keep this an _open_ project, not one where only one
> > member has the power.
>
> Umm... please don't misinterpret my role as a moderator.
>
> It does NOT require write permission in the CVS to  contribute  to  a
> project, or to get credited for your work.

Really? I remember some lengthy discussions about a patch that ended
with a rather, er, grungy moderator asking me multiple times for a
rewording of the README part of the patch, because he didn't like the
patch.

There _is_ a difference if you have to beg for a feature to go into
the sources.

Best Regards,
Marius

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marius Groeger           SYSGO Real-Time Solutions AG       mgroeger at sysgo.de
Software Engineering     Embedded and Real-Time Software    www.sysgo.de
Voice: +49-6136-9948-0   Am Pfaffenstein 14                 www.osek.de
FAX:   +49-6136-9948-10  55270 Klein-Winternheim, Germany   www.elinos.com




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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Wolfgang Denk
In message <Pine.LNX.4.40.0211041843090.2621-100000 at mag.devdep.sysgo.de> you wrote:
>
> I thought we have known each other for long enough a time to have such
> "trust" in each other's work. We will probably never gain 100%

Let's work a while togehter on this project, and we'll see.

> Really? I remember some lengthy discussions about a patch that ended
> with a rather, er, grungy moderator asking me multiple times for a
> rewording of the README part of the patch, because he didn't like the
> patch.

So probably it's not exactly a "resonant mind" then.

> There _is_ a difference if you have to beg for a feature to go into
> the sources.

I rather discuss such an issue before, and then have an agreement  of
the involved parties. This has nothing to do with "begging".

You mention exactly one of the reason why I don't intend to grant you
or anybody else immediate CVS write access. I want  to  know  how  it
works out exactly in situations like that.


What's so bad with sending a couple of patches first? Everybody  else
does.


Let's stop this discussing, it costs but time. If you want  to  help,
please send patches, and you are welcome.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

--
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd at denx.de
See us @ electronica 2002 in Munich, Nov 12-15, Hall A3, Booth A3.325



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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Robert Schwebel-2
In reply to this post by Marius Groeger-2
Hi,

On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 06:59:33PM +0100, Marius Groeger wrote:
[...flamewar deleted...]

Ok folks, calm down everyone. I think that we have to find a solution
which is acceptable for Wolfgang as well as for The Sysgos (TM). The
situation is not easy, we all know that things havn't been developing
optimally in the past, but having an unified tree now as a base for
future work is definitely a beginning.

Looking from outside, I think the main arguments are these:

- Wolfgang definitely has the most knowledge about the project. Him
  having the best overview about the design, I can understand that he
  wants to stay in control about what goes in.
 
- Marius and Rob, being the ARMboot maintainers, naturally had the same
  "rights" on "their" project in the past and don't want to change this.

IMHO the only reasonable way is to _start_discussion_ on a u-boot
developers' mailing list, so that larger design decisions are done only
after having them discussed on the list. At the moment we only have a
users' list. I'm thinking about something like the RTAI development
model.  

I understand that Wolfgang wants to avoind that code-that-doesn't-
follow-The-Plan goes in, but you should take into account that if such
things have happened in the past it was at a time where there _was_no_
team of developers behind the project who had to agree on a common
solution.

Would it be a compromise when Wolfgang gives write access to Marius and
Rob and they promise to do major changes only after having them
discussed on the list?

Robert
--
 Dipl.-Ing. Robert Schwebel | http://www.pengutronix.de
 Pengutronix - Linux Solutions for Science and Industry
   Braunschweiger Str. 79,  31134 Hildesheim, Germany
   Handelsregister:  Amtsgericht Hildesheim, HRA 2686
    Phone: +49-5121-28619-0 |  Fax: +49-5121-28619-4

    Visit us at the SPS/IPC/Drives 2002 in Nuernberg!
   Hall 5, Booth 154 +++ Please contact us for details.



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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Marius Groeger-2
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Denk
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Wolfgang Denk wrote:

> > Really? I remember some lengthy discussions about a patch that ended
> > with a rather, er, grungy moderator asking me multiple times for a
> > rewording of the README part of the patch, because he didn't like the
> > patch.
>
> So probably it's not exactly a "resonant mind" then.

So you define the resonance frequency. Which I find not very
cooperative. Don't we have the same rights, like to reject (or debate)
_your_ enhancements?

> What's so bad with sending a couple of patches first? Everybody  else
> does.

Let me ask you a question: why do you maintain your own kernel tree?
Probably because its easier than getting your patches accepted. I want
to avoid that situation happening again in our micro-cosmos. (And
that's what it really is, be fair.)

> Let's stop this discussing, it costs but time. If you want  to  help,

Wolfgang, please don't always turn away from inconvenience like that.
I know it's tedious, and I know that some people out there shake their
heads, but we're dealing with Open Source here, so the rights of
maintainance should be discussed openly as well. Actually I'd be
interested in other peoples opinion on this. Do we need aprobation
time to be allowed to continue working on U-Boot[ARM] again?

Best Regards,
Marius

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marius Groeger           SYSGO Real-Time Solutions AG       mgroeger at sysgo.de
Software Engineering     Embedded and Real-Time Software    www.sysgo.de
Voice: +49-6136-9948-0   Am Pfaffenstein 14                 www.osek.de
FAX:   +49-6136-9948-10  55270 Klein-Winternheim, Germany   www.elinos.com




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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Marius Groeger-2
In reply to this post by Robert Schwebel-2
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Robert Schwebel wrote:

> Ok folks, calm down everyone. I think that we have to find a solution

Actually I'm surprisingly calm. Don't know why. :-) I must be getting
old. I was hoping not to write flames yet. Sorry if it sounded
otherwise.

[quite fitting analysis of status quo]

> IMHO the only reasonable way is to _start_discussion_ on a u-boot
> developers' mailing list, so that larger design decisions are done only
> after having them discussed on the list. At the moment we only have a
> users' list. I'm thinking about something like the RTAI development
> model.

Hm.. Is that really a good reference? Honestly, RTAI tends to be a
little bit chaotic from time to time. Also, I think multiple lists
tend to be confusing, and even needlessly cut off users that might
have valuable contributions to a discussion.

> Would it be a compromise when Wolfgang gives write access to Marius and
> Rob and they promise to do major changes only after having them
> discussed on the list?

Yes, and that's all that we ask for. Well, not quite all: all
maintainers have to give that promise, of course.

Best Regards,
Marius

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marius Groeger           SYSGO Real-Time Solutions AG       mgroeger at sysgo.de
Software Engineering     Embedded and Real-Time Software    www.sysgo.de
Voice: +49-6136-9948-0   Am Pfaffenstein 14                 www.osek.de
FAX:   +49-6136-9948-10  55270 Klein-Winternheim, Germany   www.elinos.com




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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Robert Schwebel-2
On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 07:44:50PM +0100, Marius Groeger wrote:
> Hm.. Is that really a good reference? Honestly, RTAI tends to be a
> little bit chaotic from time to time.

It is - but take into account that RTAI is a _much_ larger project than
U-Boot. But is there a better way? I especially like the way developers
are dealing with each other in RTAI.

Let's face the truth: we will _never_ have a case where everybody is
happy with what we have. There is _always_ compromise.

> Also, I think multiple lists tend to be confusing, and even needlessly
> cut off users that might have valuable contributions to a discussion.

One list is ok for me, just let's start _discussing_ instead of crying
after everything went wrong.

Robert
--
 Dipl.-Ing. Robert Schwebel | http://www.pengutronix.de
 Pengutronix - Linux Solutions for Science and Industry
   Braunschweiger Str. 79,  31134 Hildesheim, Germany
   Handelsregister:  Amtsgericht Hildesheim, HRA 2686
    Phone: +49-5121-28619-0 |  Fax: +49-5121-28619-4

    Visit us at the SPS/IPC/Drives 2002 in Nuernberg!
   Hall 5, Booth 154 +++ Please contact us for details.



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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Wolfgang Denk
In reply to this post by Marius Groeger-2
In message <Pine.LNX.4.40.0211041930120.2979-100000 at mag.devdep.sysgo.de> you wrote:
>
> > What's so bad with sending a couple of patches first? Everybody  else
> > does.
>
> Let me ask you a question: why do you maintain your own kernel tree?
> Probably because its easier than getting your patches accepted. I want

You know the reasons very well:

We need a stable kernel for our customers, but patches and extensions
get only accepted for the 2.5 kernel, which is  far  from  acceptable
for  a  customer project. So we simply have no choice but maintaining
our own trees.

> interested in other peoples opinion on this. Do we need aprobation
> time to be allowed to continue working on U-Boot[ARM] again?

Nobody prevents you from working - just go on. The  only  restriction
that  _everybody_  will  be  facing  is  that CVS write access is not
granted immediately. Send me your patches, and  I  promise  to  merge
them  in  with  the  minimum possible delay. Then we'll discuss write
permissions again. My descision  is  based  on  experience  from  the
PPCBoot project, and I see no good reason to change my mind.

Best regards,

Wolfgang Denk

--
Software Engineering:  Embedded and Realtime Systems,  Embedded Linux
Phone: (+49)-8142-4596-87  Fax: (+49)-8142-4596-88  Email: wd at denx.de
See us @ electronica 2002 in Munich, Nov 12-15, Hall A3, Booth A3.325



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[U-Boot-Users] CVS Write Access to Das U-Boot

Marius Groeger-2
In reply to this post by Robert Schwebel-2
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Robert Schwebel wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 04, 2002 at 07:44:50PM +0100, Marius Groeger wrote:
> > Hm.. Is that really a good reference? Honestly, RTAI tends to be a
> > little bit chaotic from time to time.
>
> It is - but take into account that RTAI is a _much_ larger project than
> U-Boot. But is there a better way? I especially like the way developers
> are dealing with each other in RTAI.

Couldn't agree more. Talking of reference models: how do you like the
MTD project and list? Highly competent folks, fair access to the CVS
system, well defined responsibilies.

> Let's face the truth: we will _never_ have a case where everybody is
> happy with what we have. There is _always_ compromise.

Right.

> One list is ok for me, just let's start _discussing_ instead of crying
> after everything went wrong.

Well - isn't it discussing what I'm trying to do?

Best Regards,
Marius

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marius Groeger           SYSGO Real-Time Solutions AG       mgroeger at sysgo.de
Software Engineering     Embedded and Real-Time Software    www.sysgo.de
Voice: +49-6136-9948-0   Am Pfaffenstein 14                 www.osek.de
FAX:   +49-6136-9948-10  55270 Klein-Winternheim, Germany   www.elinos.com